Cotxes elèctrics xinesos als EUA: el debat real

When Toyota [music]

and Honda first came to the American

market, they said, "We don't [music]

want that crap here. Keep that someplace

else. Everyone loves them now." Like,

"Oh, that's great. Yeah, give me a Honda

Toyota."

>> The number one thing that America is

doing to hurting itself [music] by

blocking these other vehicles.

>> Why are we so reliant on foreign

automakers [music] to be the ones

pushing this?

>> Rich Benois, better known as Rich

Rebuilt, is one of the most respected

[music] independent voices in the EV

world.

>> Been watching your exploits. Thank you

very much. Thank you. We're not like

Europe. We're not like China. We're not

like anywhere else in the world.

>> We have roughly 1.6 million engineers in

[music] the US. China educates more than

that every year.

>> Larry Evans is a clean technica

journalist who's [music] been covering

the rise of Chinese EVs for years. When

should the US open up the gates?

>> Together, they offer a perspective you

rarely hear in the same [music]

conversation. It's creeping in from the

north now with Canada, creeping in from

the south with Mexico.

It's only a matter of time until we

eventually do get Chinese cars in the

US. And then what happens?

One in four [music] cars sold globally

in 2025 was electric. And analysts are

expecting that that number is going to

double in the next [music] decade. So

today I'm here with Rich Retrobuild and

we have Larry Evans from Clean Technica

and I wanted to talk to you guys a

little bit about the American car market

and what's going on with it, the

direction we are headed compared to

what's going on globally when it comes

to car manufacturing.

>> Yeah. So if you look at the US car

market, it was around 8% EVs last year

and it's dropped to around 6% this year.

Meanwhile, China has risen up to

twothirds EVs in the most recent months.

So, they're hitting 66%.

Hainan, which is an island kind of like

the Hawaii of China, they just announced

that they're going to stop selling all

IC vehicles at the end of the decade.

There's a good chance a lot of the tier

one cities are going to follow. So,

they're the largest car market in the

world is moving head at a rapid pace.

They're expanding that to a lot of

Southeast Asia. They're making major

moves here in Germany. And that's going

to really drive the market forward.

>> In order for Americans to adopt the EV

mindset, it's going to be extremely

difficult. Number one, this country was

founded on freedom, being free, freedom

of choice. I could buy whatever I want.

I could do whatever I want.

>> And trying to sell, you know, your

average American an EV as compared to a

gas vehicle has never been an easy

thing. Like, yes, we're making really

good progress and strides in terms of EV

adoption, but we still have a really

long way to go. The Ford F-150 gas, they

sell 800,000 of those a year.

>> Yeah,

>> that's that's everything in Tesla's

lineup for one year. And Ford does this

with one single product. If you think

about this,

>> no one needs an F-150. I don't want to

say no one needs it, but most Americans,

the overwhelming major of Americans

don't need F150. They don't have to tow.

They just want the freedom of knowing

that they could if they needed to.

>> They're buying what if. Not that I need

it, but what if I do? And EVs are the

worst case scenario for what ifs. You

know why? Cuz charging and range. If I

want to drive, wait a minute, I have to

stop for, you know, 30 minutes to an

hour. I don't want to do that. I want to

have my freedom to be able to drive as

far as I want.

>> On that point, there are quarter million

EV chargers in the US.

>> China's at approximately 25 million.

>> Yeah.

>> So a quarter million versus 25 million

to hit 28 million by the end of the

year. Most of them fast charging. some

of them megawatt flash charging that

charge a car as fast as a gas car can

charge. And when you hit that density of

charging,

>> the concern about inconvenience and all

that kind of goes out the window. Now,

>> you're still not going to be able to tow

as easily with without a range extender.

And I think that's one thing that we're

starting to see in China also, the range

extenders getting the extra tow range.

But that density of charging

infrastructure is really helping to

drive them forward at a rapid rate. The

other thing is we all saw the GX

>> when we were in uh Beijing. That is a no

compromised vehicle as every single

option, all the power you could ever

want.

>> Full-size SUV would sell like hotcakes

in the US. every luxury screen that you

could possibly put in it and it's a

reasonable price, less than the average

car in the United States. And one thing

that you're seeing in China now is these

no compromised vehicles. You aren't

buying it because it's an EV.

>> It's a better car because it's an EV and

you're buying it because it's a better

car, right? So, I think we have to

change the American mind on that cuz

remember that like all that's very true,

but you're coming into a market where

the number one selling car in the United

States is a massive four-door pickup

truck,

>> right?

>> So, like you have to come in and tell

people, hey, listen, no, no, no, buy

this instead and not that, it's

definitely going to be an uphill battle.

>> If you're lucky to get 20 miles per

gallon and with the price of gas,

>> yeah, that starts adding up fast.

>> It does. It doesn't matter. It doesn't

matter. they still get home.

>> So, do you think a lot of this also has

to do with the way America is shaped and

how spread out we are? Our driving needs

are a little bit different than you if

you look at Europe or China and where we

have to drive in a day. Like, we might

live farther away from the office

>> and have further driving needs. But

again, and we don't have access to these

Chinese cars right now. We don't have

access to these vehicles

>> that meet those needs. But I think the

bigger thing that's a disruptor in this

whole thing is that Americans aren't

seeing the possibility. And I talked to

a battery executive out of China and he

said the number one thing that America

is doing to hurting itself by blocking

these other vehicles is we're not

learning from them. He said our strength

is we're learning from each of our

customers at this battery manufacturer.

They're learning from us. We're all

building on each other's ideas and

progress keeps happening. A lot of

Americans don't even know this is

possible.

>> And that mental problem is going to be

much more difficult to overcome than any

of the technological barriers. If people

still think that, you know, I have to

make sacrifices, get the Prius

equivalent of a car if I want an EV, you

know, Tesla did a lot of that with the

performance versions and whatnot, but

it's not just performance, it's

everything. You can get whatever you

want better in an EV now. We just aren't

given access. We aren't given the

freedom of choice in the land of the

free, home of the brave, where we're not

brave enough to let competition in.

>> Yeah.

>> I think we um

>> uh none of this really is new. And I

think a lot of us that are obviously

talking here and watching this live in a

bubble, for example, right? So, we all

know what EVs are capable of. You know

how fast they can charge. I've driven

Teslas. When you plug them in at a

supercharger, I've never It's insane how

fast, even how fast they charge now

versus [clears throat] what they were

before. They charge five times faster

than what they when the first 2012 Model

S came out. And people know that. I know

that. You know that. A lot of the

American public knows that as well. But

unfortunately, a lot of them just aren't

really ready to make that transition yet

because they have barriers in their

minds, whether it be from friends or

family members to say, "Well, you don't

want this because electric cars catch

fire."

>> Yeah. Those stories go viral. Anytime an

electric car catches fire, the first

thing you see is, "See, he told you you

shouldn't buy those things in the first

place." So, changing that mindset to

tell people, hey, you know what? Even

though these things may happen, this is

still better for you is a really,

really, really challenging thing to do.

to tell people, hey, listen, like,

>> you know, even though you might not be

able to drive as far on a single charge,

this is still better for you because

XYZ. Even though there may not be as

many places to charge this car, it's

still better than this XYZ. Even though

these cars might cost on average, you

know, 5 10 50% more, it's okay because

XYZ. changing that American mindset when

they focus on utility, freedom, price,

>> and you know, overall the ability to do

the things they need to do, it's a

really hard problem to solve.

>> So, do you think who's at fault for

this? Do you think it is uh the

automakers? Do you think that it is the

American government for not pushing

incentives anymore where we look at, you

know, other governments across the world

and they've kind of like incentivized

their electric cars which also tend to

if if we're thinking about it be

technologydriven vehicles first um and

then that's you know and then their car

makers second.

>> So there's still a lot of government

incentives for manufacturers. So you

talk about automakers, there's the 45x

tax credits that go for the batteries.

Those add up to more than all of the

subsidies in China, just that battery

tax credit. They're also getting a lot

of subsidies to build factories

specifically for EVs that are now ending

up building IC vehicles because nobody

wants to buy EVs. Gave them a whole

bunch of tax shreds for that. So we're

still giving incentives to

manufacturers. We aren't giving out

consumer incentives anymore. And if

people don't see it, they don't know

it's real. And a lot of people aren't

doing the math on all these things and

realizing all the government support

that's within it. But even that's not

necessarily getting us over the hill in

our closed market. Um,

people have to see it. And I I think

that partially, you know, what we're

doing trying to get the word out about

all these things with EVs, they get to

see it. and you you see a car that's

less expensive than what you're paying,

that's better and charges in five

minutes. So, it's no compromises there

and you see that's possible

then people can change their mind. But,

>> but before we jump in, huge [music]

thanks to Xfang for inviting me to

Germany and sponsoring this portion of

the video. If you have never heard of

Xfang before, [music] you can think of

them as the Tesla of China. So they also

think of themselves as a tech AI company

[music] first who happens to make

powerful self-driving cars kind of like

another company. In fact, their

bestselling car in China is the Mona

Mod3 [music] and it was actually named

after the Model 3 as a nod to Tesla for

its role in making EVs popular. The

company is actually really new. It

started in 2014 with their smart EVs,

but now they're expanding into much more

than cars. They've got vision-based

self-driving, robo taxis, humanoid

robots, and even flying cars. And that's

actually why I'm here in Munich right

now. They invited media from all around

the world for their global launch of

their new LO3 [music] SUV. I'm getting a

behindthescenes look at their design

process, engineering, and their broader

AI ecosystem. [music] So, let's get back

to what this actually means for you.

>> I grew up in Missouri for a lot of the

show me state. Don't tell me, show me.

And you have to show people that this is

possible. who keep telling them, they'll

be like, "There's so many messages going

on there with all the politicians and

everything else going back and forth." A

lot of people just don't believe until

they see it themselves.

>> But why aren't the American OEMs doing

it on their own? Why are we so reliant

on foreign automakers

to be the ones pushing this? You know,

>> it's because of uh American uh

consumerism and capitalism. People

follow the money. Ford isn't going to

devort their re to Ford divert their

resources to making an EVs when they

sell more F-150s than any car in the

United States. Matter of fact, Ford

realized that people keep screaming and

saying, "We need more affordable sedans.

Like, we want small family sedans. The

Model Y is killing it. You know, uh the

Honda CRV is killing it. You know, the

uh the Toyota RAV 4 is killing it." Ford

made the decision to say, "You know

what? We're going to stop all that.

We're not going to sell sedans anymore.

Even though the Americans want small

affordable cars, we don't care because

our bottom line is this.

>> The Ford Maverick pickup truck. They

sell millions of the F-150. They

[clears throat] sell millions of they're

following the exact market. And for Ford

to come out and say, "Hey guys, you

know, I know you love your F-150s. I

know you love your Mavericks. Uh we

don't sell sedans anymore.

>> What we want you to do instead, we want

you to buy a Mach E instead."

>> Mhm. [clears throat]

>> That didn't go very well. the Ford F-150

Lightning that didn't go anywhere. So,

changing the minds of consumers is going

to be a definite like concentrated

effort. Um, I think Ford made the right

step

>> when the CEO started driving the Chinese

EVs and said, "I love these things."

>> Xiaomi,

>> the Xiaomi. Yeah, he I love these

things.

>> Unfortunately, it didn't really move the

needle in terms of, you know, Ford's own

EV sales. those kind of shots in the

foot.

>> But it's definitely going to be an

uphill battle that's going to require uh

almost like a fight on all fronts. You

need to educate the public.

>> You need to incentivize the public,

>> but then it gets that awkward phrase

where why do we have to incentivize

something so heavily for something

that's effectively right in the first

place? Why do we have to convince people

to buy something which is the correct

choice in people's eyes? That's a really

difficult battle to fight.

>> And China's been cutting back all their,

you know, support. So, they used to have

a purchase tax exemption.

>> They're phasing that out. So, it's gone.

They're they've gotten rid of some of

their uh tax rebates. So, VAT, if you

buy anything, you buy a handbag here. Go

to the airport, you get your VAT back.

>> They're not refunding VAT on their

exports anymore. They're getting rid of

that. So, they're taking away these

incentives because they've reached that

level of maturity. We have not reached

that level yet

>> and it's going to be a challenge for us

to reach it. One of the statistics that

I came across recently is that with the

recent retirements, restrictions on

immigration and re increased cost of

education.

>> We have roughly 1.6 million engineers in

the US.

>> Yeah.

>> China educates more than that every

year. Mhm.

>> And if you're trying to divide different

people and make it an us versus them on

technology, the country that's adding

more engineers than we have total every

year is an advantage.

>> We can still contribute. We can still

collaborate and work together. But if

you try and divide it,

>> we aren't investing in the right place.

The number one thing China did was

educate a bunch of engineers to develop

the technology and leap to that next

step. And if we want to do it, that's a

hard thing to do.

>> But we have to put that investment

educating young people, getting us to be

competitive,

>> and we aren't just going to catch up by

isolating our market. Just like the

Trabant that we were talking about,

>> in a lot of ways, we're kind of digging

our own grave

>> because we're not putting the education

in there. We're kind of not educating

our entire US population on what is out

there. We're restricting the

competition. So eventually when the

competition does come, because how much

longer can they hold out? They're

saying, you know, all the data stuff

right now, that's what they're holding

on to, but I feel like,

>> you know, it's creeping in from the

north now with Canada, creeping in from

the south with Mexico.

>> It's only a matter of time. Like a lot

of people are saying like maybe two,

three years um until we eventually do

get

>> Chinese cars in the US and then what

happens?

>> I think there's another factor coming in

here. China is taking over all the other

markets. We are not reaching global

scale on anything. So only things like

the F-150 that are dedicated the US

market that are not relevant anywhere

else, that's going to still be

successful for them. But you're also

kind of isolating yourself from the rest

of the world. You're not in that

competitive environment and that's

dragging the whole thing down. How long

you can hold out? That's a good

question. The one thing about the US is

our economy is driven by consumption.

And if you tell consumers that they

can't get what they want,

>> they're going to be upset. People think

that, oh, it's military spending that

tore down the Berlin Wall, which is to

the north of us. But

>> the real things they want their

Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Levis's Jeans,

Rolling Stones, MercedesBenz,

that tore down the wall. And I think

that once consumers catch on that they

can have better, live better for less

money, especially with all the

affordability. You know, it's like we're

using these CRT TVs that cost two months

salary back in the 80s when you can get

a touchscreen that costs a few hours of

wages that's better. You know, a big

widescreen TV, 4K for less money.

>> I think Americans want what they want

when they want it and they want it now.

I think this country is in a very unique

space where

>> we're not like Europe, we're not like

China, we're not like anywhere else in

the world. Number one, even though I

keep, you know, harping on this F-150

thing,

>> that Ford F-150 wouldn't survive

anywhere else in the world.

>> You don't see F-150s on European streets

for a very big reason. They're just such

massive vehicles.

>> So, number two, what you're also going

to realize as well is that when uh Honda

and Toyota first came here,

>> there was a big push from Americans to

saying, "We don't want these vehicles

here." If you remember that or not,

there was a huge push. They had a lot of

not very nice names to say about foreign

automakers coming in. We don't want

those, you know, not very well put

together cars here. We don't want their

money. Keep those cars where they are

>> now. They're the two and three number

two and three selling cars in the United

States. Right.

>> And they're known for reliability and

quality.

>> They're known for reliability. So, I

think it's going to be uh a learning

curve. And one of the things I question

as to whether or not these uh foreign

automakers come in, I don't really

believe it's going to be a decimation of

the uh American car market like a lot of

people speculate. And and here's the

reason why. If if the Chinese are going

to bring cars to the United States,

let's just say they say, you know what,

let these cars in.

>> I don't really think the American car

market is going to flip upside down. Not

just yet, at least. The majority of the

cars that will be coming from other

sources will be electric cars.

>> Yeah.

>> We already have several electric car

choices, whether it be Kia, Rivian, you

know, uh Tesla or the United States,

right?

>> So when these cars come in, these cars

already take up such a very small market

share. Once these new cars come in, it's

not all of a sudden going to go from 7%

to 20% to 50%. It's going to do that.

Number two, when the cars come in, all

these, you know, really low prices that

we're easily enticed by, oh, you get

this car for 10 grand, 20 grand, 20

grand. When those cars come here, they

will no longer be 15, 20 grand.

>> Yeah.

>> They're they're just not they're just

not going to price. So, like what's

going to happen is you're going to have

a larger pool of electric vehicles,

sure.

>> Are they going to take over the American

market? I'm not really sure of that yet.

I think that number is going to grow

very very you know gradually

>> because in order for there to be a large

explosion of the population of the

popularity of these vehicles

>> Americans have to change pretty much

everything the way they do.

>> Yeah.

>> Right now in you could drive from you

know Germany to France to Spain and D in

a very small period of time. The United

States it'll take you days to go from

one ear to the other. The United States

cities aren't exactly close apart.

>> You have to drive from place to place.

>> America is built on the freedom of

having your own vehicle. Our public

transport system needs to be desired.

>> We have all these current issues in

place that aren't exactly conducive to

having, you know, a large share of EVs.

I think as time goes on, as we have

smarter cities that are built that are

built more efficiently for traveling, uh

more EV charging infrastructure, more

places to service EVs, I think it'll

change then. But as of now,

>> we're trying to have this modern

technology on aging infrastructure and

an aging mindset.

>> I think the aging mindset's the number

one thing. And I think that even when

China enters, it will take a while for

people's minds to wrap around it,

>> right? I think perhaps the big beyond

not learning from what's happening, not

having competition there, I think is

making our cars worse. If if Ford knows

I have to compete against these other

EVs, right, they have to step up their

game. And I think when people have to

step up their game be [music] kind of

like the US automakers [clears throat]

did in the 80s. They had to learn how to

make small cars that were affordable.

You couldn't just slap a V8 engine in it

and call it good enough because you had

that competition coming in. And

>> it will take a while for people to

change their minds. I look at what Peter

Brock did with the Dodson 510s and like

all that racing that changed a lot of

people's minds. But it took a while.

Even if you look at what's happening in

China, there are better cars for the

money than the Teslas if you look at

them side by side.

>> But people Tesla is first and they still

have that first mover mindset and they

still think that it's

>> it's a great car

and it's mostly older people who are

still buying it. Our demographics in the

US average car buyer is around 56.

>> Yeah. you know, so that demographic,

>> those ones that can afford, who else can

afford a car that's the average car

price is like 50, 60 grand.

>> Yeah. Getting those people who are, you

know, a little bit older than me, but

not much to change their minds. It's a

little bit slower process. And

um I think that the technology will move

faster than public awareness and

correct. Um

>> I have a question for you also, and you

may I don't know if you have the answer

to this, but we're in Europe right now.

For those that don't realize, we are in

Germany. We're here for an Xpang event.

We're learning about Xpang cars. We've

we've all traveled a lot globally and

have kind of seen what has happened

globally. Now, in Europe, you know, we

are bringing all these Chinese

manufacturers here. They're they're

here, but at the same time, we still

have BMW, Mercedes. What is going on um

to those luxury German brands when the

Chinese are coming in?

So it it depends on which brand you're

dealing with. Um but one thing's

happening is more partnership. If you

look at the new new class EX-3

and you talk to the people in China when

they were displaying it there first is a

lot of collaboration going on. Even

though the styling is largely German,

you look at the battery, it's EV Energy,

that's a Chinese manufacturer. a lot of

the motors and a lot of the engineering

in there, it's not 100% Chinese, but

it's heavily relying on collaboration

and the collaboration makes their new

EVs dramatically better than the ones

they replace. And I think they are

taking a leading role in that

collaboration moving forward. You look

at Volkswagen. Volkswagen has a huge

challenge in that their board is largely

labor unions. half of its labor unions

and then part of its lower Saxony and

the two of them together want to keep

the manufacturing here but they're also

exploring these partnerships with Xpunk

they have the ID Unix you go to the show

and you look at their partner vehicles

in their very impressive vehicles at at

the Beijing auto show that we were at

right

>> um I think partnership is the way

forward this global collaboration no

longer thinking this is a

>> German car although German does sell.

And that's a challenge with an Audi

brand in China that

>> people know it's a Chinese Audi. They

want a German Audi cuz they're buying

German,

>> right?

>> But eventually

that's set to catch on.

>> But look at what happened in the US now

with Polestar. We had Polestar and now

they're banned in the US and that was

kind of a collaboration.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And that to me seemed like that would be

the way to kind of start those

collaborations in the US. Bring them in.

That should have been the first step and

that should have been

>> and they stopped it right there

>> and they stopped it. It's like why not

bring that in, you know, allow

>> Ford to develop their line with like

>> Xiaomi or something, you know?

>> Well, Ford tried to collaborate with CL

on a battery plant. They shut him down.

>> You know, a lot of people don't want

that collaboration. Um, and it's coming

from both sides. We, you know, sometimes

we focus a lot on just Trump, but it's

also the labor unions. The labor unions

want the traditional automakers who

aren't as strong in this new technology

to keep doing what they're doing

>> and keep manufacturing that has jobs,

not necessarily automated. I mean, we

saw the Xpunk Plat, it's fully

automated, right? Up until you get to

final assembly automation, they want to

keep that you have both sides working

together, fossil fuels, corporate

leadership, and labor unions. And that's

very hard to overcome.

>> It's extremely hard. And I think a lot

of Americans are scared, not Americans

in general, but like a lot of people in

general are scared of that automation

that you speak of

>> because with that level of automation,

those uh those dark plants that they

have in general, there's no lights at

all, just robots working 24/7.

>> What happens to the average American

auto automaker? What happens to to

places like Detroit that that's the

lifeblood United States, you know, to

make those American products? a lot of

those issues they start slowing down

like how many tech companies have laid

off tens of thousands of people because

of AI automation. So, I think a lot of

these labor unions are fighting to keep

the pride in these in these workers that

might not be necessarily uh able or apt

to actually compete in these markets.

>> Because I'll tell you, if a lot of these

uh technologies they have overseas were

to be implemented in the US,

>> it would be something else. The prices

would drop

>> uh but a lot of jobs would be lost.

>> Yeah.

>> A lot of efficiency would be lost. Look

at AI data centers. 50 employees for

something that you know takes a job of

thousands.

>> And EVs have a lot fewer parts and the

parts they have

>> are automated assembly.

>> The batteries automated assembly. The

motors are automated. So like you don't

have a bunch of people in the powertrain

assembling a ton of gears and a ton of

like engine parts.

>> It's all highly automated. And you look

at some of these like 16in1 12 in1

assemblies where it's one power unit.

The electronics aren't that complicated.

It's all consolidated. It's all mounted

to the motor. All slots in there,

>> which gives you freedom and it gives you

the ability to design things and do more

creative things. But

>> that efficiency, the flip side is it's

not as labor intensive.

>> So, think about uh even Tesla, and this

is what blew my mind when when Tesla

first came on the scene. You want a

Model 3, do you want a white interior or

a black interior?

>> That's all you get.

>> Yeah. uh uh Ford, Chevy, Silverados. Oh,

do you want this trim level? There's

seven trim levels. Yeah,

>> there's five different interior choices.

You could have the platinum, the the

XLT, the Eddie Bower edition that uses

like raw cowhide.

>> Like, these things are labor intensive,

but

>> this is what the American populace

wants.

>> So, when Tesla came out and said, "Hey,

we're going to charge you $60,000 for a

car that has plastic seats and a little

screen in the middle." People were like,

"This doesn't make any sense." Guess

what? over the past 10 years, people

only want to drive Teslas now. So, a lot

of it is like changing the American

mindset to say, "Wait a minute, like

>> like yes, I understand that this isn't

what you're used to,

>> but look, it makes farting noise to the

you know what I mean? Look what else it

could do." You hear what I'm saying?

>> I I think along those lines, we also see

cycles where everyone wants kind of the

same car and they all want them the same

basic and then you go into

customization. We're seeing a

customization phase. The amount of

attachments and different things you can

do and how you can set up the vehicle in

different ways. It's not the same kind

of customization that we might have been

used to. You know, we aren't adding

turbos and all that, but like

>> that cycle is coming back where people

can personalize it. People don't want

all the same thing. Not that they're

seeing a lot of these

>> vehicles for example. Yeah. Absolutely.

>> Yeah. And then the other thing to think

about too is do people still want to

drive their cars? Do people still care

about a car from a car standpoint or do

they want this more as just [music]

physical AI that can take me from point

A to point B? And if that mindset does

change in the US, which you can already

see it starting to, and that's the trend

we're seeing happen around the world.

It's kind of like the US is the one

that's behind here. you know, that

that's gonna radically change our

economy. And

>> that next P7 though, as a car you want

to drive, but for chore driving, like

you're stuck in heavy traffic, it'll

take over that. So, it could take over

the drive, the chore driving, and then

you have a car that's also fun to drive.

So I think that there's a potential that

we kind of make bring it back to what's

fun

>> and having that kind of a re resurgence

in fun. Even if you only use it on the

weekend, even if you have an IC car on

the weekend and you have an electric

autonomous vehicle that takes you back

and forth to work and does all the

chores and it's quiet and efficient and

>> yeah,

>> like

>> you know driving in New York City during

rush hour, it's not fun. It's not fun

driving. I enjoy driving, right? I like

the tur curvy roads. I like the

acceleration.

>> But chore driving isn't fun. If it can

take that off, maybe we even see a

resurgence of people wanting to learn

slip angles and get that. I mean, they

need an electric Miata to come out.

Somebody needs to figure that out. But

like we need to get fun back into these.

I think that if you look at a lot of

places now that you can buy like that

track experience and you can become a

member

>> and I think we're going to start to see

that resurgence of people that want to

drive for fun for sport.

>> Pleasure. Yeah.

>> Pleasure driving kind of like horseback

riding if we're going to go back to it.

It's like it became like a sport for fun

and then we're also going to have it.

And maybe that's where some of these,

you know, OEMs need to lean more into

that performance aspect and that's how

they'll survive by leaning into that

where we do, you know, and again, we do

have some Americanmade companies that I

think

>> will be able to compete. You know,

Rivian is really leaning into their AI.

We obviously have Tesla who's the global

leader right now. Um, those companies

are going to survive. We'll see what

happens with Lucid, who is American but

kind of non-American,

>> more Saudi at this point.

>> Yeah. [laughter] Um but we'll see where

where where this goes in the future. But

if you were going to guess 10 years from

now, who would be at the top

>> in terms of uh car manufacturing?

>> Yeah, global global and in the US

>> BYD. um just the vertical integration,

the full technology stack from silicon

carbide to the motors uh to the

batteries. No, not necessarily all their

cars are exciting. So, the Dong is a

great car, the Clo's a great car. Most

of them are kind of like more commodity

cars, but you know, the RAV 4 overtook

the Model Y, and the RAV 4 is not an

exciting car. Um, not everybody's

wanting that, but it also opens the door

for a lot of other companies to take

their niche, do something a little bit

more fun. Um, but I would say BYD. Um,

>> I think the American market is going to

look different from the global market,

but if I were to guess globally, I would

say a Chinese manufacturer is definitely

going to be on top for sure. I don't

know which one it's going to be, but I

would I would say one of many we have

now. I also think that in 10 years a lot

of the Chinese manufacturers you see

today won't won't exist. I think they

might be rolled up into one, you know,

uh overall global brand. Uh but I don't

think a lot of them will be here. Uh I

still do think that Tesla is definitely

going to be uh a close second, maybe

even third. But I think with the shift

with what you see Tesla's doing, they're

they still make cars, which is great,

but now they're shifting more towards

the actual tech aspect of things.

There's no more S, no more X. Uh, you're

going to start to see a lot more robots,

I'm assuming, and I think they're going

to continue with the with the Y uh 3,

>> pop out a new model here and there, but

>> cyber cab.

>> Cyber cab, but I don't know if they will

be the global leader in terms of

consumer.

>> I don't think they're going to get Yeah,

I think I think the I think the cyber

cabs are going to be uh very interesting

to see how those progress. I think

there's going to be a lot of push back

on those as well uh in terms of uh you

know uh jobs, but I think it's it's

going to be interesting for sure.

>> So, I have a question for both of you.

Would you rather be in a little

two-seater

>> y

>> or an Xpunk GX with all the screens and

this the reclining massage seat?

>> It seems a little biased.

>> There's no question. There's no question

on what which one you would rather be in

if you're

>> first class or economy class in my

opinion.

>> Right. Yeah, there's no question. But

then the other thing is, you know, we

talked a little bit about the

collaborative nature.

>> Maybe Tesla in the future is like, "Hey,

>> we'll collab with some of these American

OEMs to save our economy

>> and we're not going to be the car makers

anymore, but we're going to give you our

technology."

>> I don't know if Tesla would phrase it as

saving the economy. I would think Tesla

would view it as an angle to make them

more revenue. I would say this as you

know uh other manufacturers have now

adopted the North American charging

standard [clears throat] which is which

is great.

>> Uh number two I would say that Tesla

will sell and license their technology

to a lot of places like you know they've

had collaborations with Mercedes.

They've had collaborations with uh with

also with Toyota as well. So I think

when a lot of manufacturers are like hey

we're kind of struggling here they might

lean on companies like Tesla which been

global leaders

>> and Rivian also has

>> Volkswagen. Absolutely. So we're kind of

seeing that happen. So

>> even they're not trying to be the

largest automaker. They've said this

outright. They their focus isn't even on

the manufacturing. They want to be a

technology company, right?

>> And a lot of the technology it looks

like more and more of it's going to be

supplied to other companies. And if they

can supply to Volkswagen, that could be

a lifeline to them. Volkswagen got

self-driving tech, you know, that's

globally competitive, that could really

drive their brands forward.

>> Yeah.

>> So, when should the US open up the

gates?

>> Tomorrow morning.

>> Yeah.

>> Tomorrow morning.

>> Are we hurting ourselves the longer we

wait? It's going to it's going to cause

a major clash in American culture. But

you have to understand that Americans

are more worried about other things

besides vehicles. Right now, we have the

option to buy pretty much whatever car

we want.

>> We have other issues like being able to

afford groceries and health care and

other things, other major issues like

that.

>> In terms of what we want for options for

cars, when you ask the average American

citizen, you know, what do you think

about Chinese cars? are going to say,

"Huh, I can just go to the store and buy

a car right now." Not really. The

interest really isn't.

>> Will it destroy our economy?

>> Absolutely not. It's uh it's what So,

again, I remember distinctly my father

talking about when Toyota and Honda

first came to American market, they

said, "We don't want that crap here.

Keep that someplace else." 20 years

later, 30 years later, everyone loves

them now. Like, oh, that's great. Yeah,

give me a Honda Toyota. They're known

for like quality and reliability. So, I

think the same thing's going to happen

with Chinese cars. Um, I think if you

ask the average American, where's China

versus Japan? They probably wouldn't

know. Sounds bad, but a lot of them

would not.

>> So, they said, "We don't know where it's

coming from, but we what we know that we

want something that's affordable." And I

think when they come here,

>> this fantasy about having a $12,000 car,

that's going to go kaput with within

within minutes once you realize all the

layers of red tape. This person has to

get paid. Oh, equitable labor laws. You

have to be manufactured here. a lot of

that's going to go away.

>> I also think that long-term, and we've

seen this with Hyundai and a lot of

automakers, is that it makes sense to

have large, bulky, heavily automated

products made where they are locally

just from the cost of labor in these

isn't that much. It's not that much of a

savings. So over time, once the market's

established, once they establish scale,

it will happen naturally. trying to

force it ends up with you getting the

previous generation technology.

>> The consumer is

>> it's in the best case scenarios, you are

deriving previous generation technology

to try and make something that's

competing with two generations ahead by

the time it comes out. The example I

always use is this brilliance B6 which

was Porsche BMW chassis engineering, a

Mitsubishi motor engine and pinman for

design. Sounds like recipe for success.

was all previous generation stuff at

this joint venture from China. Put it

together, the car just didn't work. It

failed every crash test. It was an

embarrassment. Actually stimulated China

to really start focusing on developing

the technology internally. But

everything they've done since then has

moved forward. Developed countries who

want the best thinking that you know

forcing these technology sharing

agreements is going to benefit them does

not work out that way. You end up with

previous generation stuff. If you're in

a developing country, great. You know,

you look at the Nissan Suru that was the

bestselling car in Mexico for years,

which was a previous generation uh

>> Sentra,

>> not competitive anywhere else, failed

all the crash standards, but it still

worked in that because it was a

developing country, right?

>> A developed country, it sets you back.

It gets you in that midpoint between no

industry and where you are. And we don't

need to step back. We need to step up

and move forward.

>> Okay.

>> All right. Let me know what you guys

think in the comments below. Do we need

to be writing to our politicians pushing

this forward? Where do you see this

going? Let us know in the comments.

Thank you for watching. Let us know if

you have any questions. Definitely go

check out Larry's writing on Clean

Technica. Also, you have a YouTube

channel.

>> Uh kind of. I'm working on it.

>> All right. And then you guys obviously

know Rich Rebuild. He's world famous.

>> I'm working on my YouTube channel, too,

but it's not ready yet. So, don't don't

>> um and thank you guys for watching.

We'll catch you next time.